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The Queen of Sample Clearance: An Interview With Deborah Mannis-Gardner

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POST WRITTEN BY
Jimmy Ness
This article is more than 8 years old.

Deborah Mannis-Gardner doesn’t rap or produce, but you’ll likely spy her on more album credits than all of the 808 mafias combined. One of America’s leading clearance agents, Deborah has spent 20 years dodging red tape to acquire music for film, samples and video games. Her role includes hunting obscure records, checking artists get their dough and putting the G-Funk in Grand Theft Auto.

Mannis-Gardner’s clients include Cash Money, Kanye, Rick Ross, Nas, Diddy and almost every other private jet gaucho. She fights for superstars as well as minor artists and is fervently against clearance becoming solely a millionaire’s game. Deborah’s vocal about protecting the culture of sampling and despite the thirsty trend of litigation, is yet to be taken to court. The feisty Jewish woman, who loves rap, discussed her favourite unreleased track, urban artists being unfairly sued, repercussions from the “Blurred Lines” lawsuit and getting Diddy on the phone with Enya.

Has there been a sample you couldn’t find?

Oh sure, there’s been situations where we can’t find a sampled copyright. I think my clients like to challenge me. I’ve been doing this now for 25 years, so I think the percentage of songs I haven’t found is under one percent.

Your company DMG is known for clearing traditionally difficult samples. What do you need to do to get sign off from Prince?

Prince doesn’t license his stuff for sampling. They’re a group that flat out deny samples.

What about for usage in film?

Prince, I have cleared for film, but that hasn’t been since the movie In Her Shoes [2005]. All the rights have reverted back to him, so I don’t know where it stands at this moment. I went to clear something recently and because of our timeline, we chose to pull it rather than chase it. I went to clear a prominent, big selling artist for a sample, who has relations with him. They reached out to him and his people said “we like your song, but we’re still going to deny you.”

Have you encountered a small artist surprising you by turning down a sample request from a superstar?

Whenever I clear a sample, I try to not make it about who the artist is that’s sampling it, because my clients range from Eminem to Michael Jackson. I’ve dealt with very large artists, Rihanna, to small artists like when Macklemore was nobody. I try to make it really clear that it’s about the sample, what they’ve used, how they’ve used it and the final outcome of the new song. It should be irrelevant who sampled it, especially with what the quote is, so if Marshall [Eminem] sampled something, it shouldn’t be a higher quote because it’s going to make a lot of money or a lower quote because you want to cut him a break.

I’m not known for getting crazy deals. I’m known for getting a fair deal. The quote should be based on the use of the sample and that’s really important. I think sampling is an art and I think it’s incredible. When I first started, I was told how it was theft. I was told that hip-hop and rap was a phase. That it wasn’t going to be around. All of that horrible, negative stuff. I kept saying “well, a collage, that’s not real art? Jambalaya isn’t real food?” That’s a great meal mixed up of different foods and spices, that’s what sampling is. Remember when there was like six or seven samples in a song and they used pieces of things like spice, adding little sounds to make something great? What about the fact that sampling took music and made it relevant again? It brought James Brown back to life. I don’t care what anyone says, it brought attention to artists that people didn’t even remember.

Do you ever see great songs not make full-length albums because of sampling issues?

I’ve seen a few things not make it because of denial. I think my favourite one that didn’t make it, was due to death. It was Ol’ Dirty Bastard with Macy Gray, being really drunk. You can find them on YouTube, doing "Don't Go Breaking My Heart," which I had cleared and then they didn't release. I think it was released on illegal mixtapes. That was brilliant. That was great, one of my favourites. I'm going to go listen to that.

Since the jury’s decision that Robin Thicke’s “Blurred Lines” infringes on Marvin Gaye’s "Got To Give It Up," have you seen songwriters worried about being sued because something sounds similar?

Well, I mean people have come to me saying “I’ve got a Robin Thicke situation,” and I say “there’s no such thing as a Robin Thicke situation.” You’ve either sampled or interpolated something or you didn’t. I don’t believe there’s such a thing as having the same feel or similarity. Inspiration is not copyrightable. I mean if you think about it, The Beatles were influenced by Chuck Berry. The Rolling Stones were influenced by Muddy Waters, and let’s talk about Marvin Gaye. Who influenced Marvin Gaye? Ray Charles, Frank Sinatra. They even said that Marvin Gaye had the same style as Sam Cooke. So where do we take this? That’s the whole basis of music.

Do you think the lawsuit result could have long-term negative consequences?

It can have very bad consequences, and I look forward to Robin Thicke’s people appealing the decision, which they have the right [to do]. I find the whole thing ludicrous and wrong. I think that there are consequences from what the Marvin estate has done. There have been other people, like I saw a YouTube clip of Stevie Wonder even disagreeing with the position of the Marvin Gaye estate, and he doesn’t even allow his stuff to be sampled anymore. I’m very disappointed in the whole situation. I wasn’t happy with the people that spoke on behalf of the Marvin Gaye side. The fact that they sequestered and did not allow Dr. Ferrara’s musicology report to be reviewed. He’s the pre-eminent musicologist that everyone uses in the hip-hop community whenever anyone questions anything. He’s the person that the Gaye Estate hired and then they withdrew his report. So obviously he proved that Robin Thicke’s people must have been innocent, right?

Was it easier for rap artists to clear samples in the 90s?

I think it depends. It was a mixture of things. Samples were done a lot differently. In the late 80s/early 90s, we were able to do buyouts when you paid a one time fee. You didn’t owe any other money. We’d get some pretty good deals. We would do a $500 buyout for a James Brown “hey, hey” on a Me Phi Me song. But that period ended when they were like “oh, I guess this genre is here to stay.”

Do you think “urban music” is unfairly targeted when it comes to lawsuits?

I’ve been saying that for a long time. Not just lawsuits, but you can hear a progression and if it’s rap music, you run out and clear it. But if you hear that same progression in an alternative rock song that you’re listening to on Sirius Radio, they are like “oh yeah, I guess it sounds like The Violent Femmes, but I’m definitely not going to put a claim in on that. “ That’s rock and roll, they all have those same kinds of feelings or chord progressions, but once you flip it to this genre of music, it’s a “claim.” I’ve always said that, I think it’s very unfair.

Were you involved in the “Big Pimpin’” case where Osama Fahmy sued Jay Z and Timbaland?

I was not, but it was Dr. Ferrara who was the won who the case for Jay Z. He’s brilliant. When we did Kendrick Lamar’s album, I had my in-house guy listen to everything, months prior, and everything we doubted or questioned, we sent to Dr. Ferrara for final decision making.

How was working with Diddy when he was an intern?

I knew him when he was an intern, but I did start in the very beginning when Bad Boy opened. I had run into Francesca Spero at some business lunch, and she’s like “oh yeah, I’m going to be going in with Puff and starting this company.” And I’m like “what!?” Then it all started.

I just did Puffy’s last album [MMM]. I mean it was still a good-sized, Puffy budget. He likes to sample. He has creative way and he likes the way the samples are used and his budget stayed the same [as it did when albums had bigger budgets].

You also handle all of the sample clearances for Cash Money. What’s the most heated battle you’ve had over a sample for them?

I guess Tyga, but that didn’t come across my desk. Tyga just did what Tyga does. He included stuff on his album Careless World: Rise Of The Last King that none of us were aware of and that’s why he got the cease and desist. He included a speech he wasn’t supposed to include on there. They actually had to pull it and re-release it.

What’s the most expensive sample you’ve cleared?

It was a six-figure deal, and the attorney was involved and really cut the deal. I actually went on record saying I was against the deal. It was a bad precedent. It was a writer who doesn’t allow sampling, did it for six figures and hasn’t done a deal since.

What can the artist do if they don’t have the money to pay for a sample?

If they don’t have the money, they need to replay it or re-sing it and that eliminates two thirds of your cost. So that’s a big saving.

How often do the copyright holders have to hear the sample before it’s cleared?

99.99%. If I’m working with Marshall [Eminem] or Kendrick, who don’t want their stuff sent out, we do it over the phone.

Have there been any recent uses of sampling that have truly impressed you?

Kendrick’s album that I worked on [To Pimp A Butterfly], we had the raw versions, unpolished, before it was mastered. There were like five to seven producers on each song and the uses of the samples and the mixing and everything they did, gave me complete goosebumps. I didn’t like as much the finished product, because it was a little bit polished. I guess I liked it a little bit rougher, but it was goosebumps just listening to “King Kunta” and all of that. Every aspect of that was a thrill and it had been a while since I had gotten a thrill listening to something.

I feel like old-fashioned artists would sometimes deny rap samples just on the fact they don’t like the genre.

Yeah, you get that, but you can’t take no as a first answer, at least in my office. I had an intern here, who got a “no” and said “ok” and hung up the phone. You can’t do that. Your job is to find out “why did I get the answer no? What is so horrible?” Until someone has explained why their answer is no and can justify it, you can’t accept that. They might say “well, I didn’t like the lyrical content” and I’ll go “okay, let’s see how we can change the lyrical content and make it acceptable.”

Really, someone would go as far as changing the lyrics because they wanted the sample?

Yeah, absolutely. You never know.

If the artist doesn’t like a cover of their song, do they have a legal right to sue?

That law doesn’t apply in the United States, that law applies in your country [England]. Enya is a great example. Puffy went to sample Enya and she initially denied it, which of course Puff doesn’t like, and Puff got on the phone with her and got it reversed and got it approved. But the whole basis was, Enya can deny covers. I was like “how is that possible?” and that’s where I learned about copyright outside the United States.

I’d like to imagine what a conversation between Enya and Diddy would be like.

The brilliance of Puff is… a lot of meetings had taken place and initially David Bowie had denied Puff for a sample and I hooked it up with Henry Wrenn-Meleck and Puff’s manager. Puff sat down with Bowie, years ago to make that happen. [Deborah is referring to the Diddy song “Been Around The World”, which samples David Bowie’s “Let’s Dance”].

When people would say “no” to Puff, we would get Puff to sit down and meet with people. I have to tell you something, as much as the press covers him as, you know, this big mouth, attitude, blah blah blah, there’s a side of him, like where he called a friend of mine, who is the manager of this band, and when he called himself he didn’t even introduce himself as Puff. He introduced himself by saying [shy, quiet voice] “hi… this is Sean Combs, also known as Puffy.” That’s how he introduced himself. He was very respectful, very polite. There’s another side of him that people don’t always see, that I see and the people that I’ve introduced him to have seen.